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Babylonian | Fri Jan-21-05 06:01 PM |
Member since Sep 18th 2002
1010 posts
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"Photos and Videos from Shrub Coronation Protests"
Edited on Sat Jan-22-05 04:55 PM by Babylonian
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  RE: Photos and Videos from Shrub Coronation Protests,
winehouse,
Jan-21-05 04:40 PM, #2
RE: Photos and Videos from Shrub Coronation Protests,
Mikhail Bulgakov,
Jan-22-05 08:50 AM, #3
RE: Photos and Videos from Shrub Coronation Protests,
pandora,
Jan-22-05 09:42 AM, #4
winehouse was replying to a deleted post,
ModSquad,
Jan-22-05 10:16 AM, #5
Okay,
Mikhail Bulgakov,
Jan-22-05 11:00 AM, #6
Welcome, winehouse,
samela,
Jan-22-05 11:23 AM, #7
It's never 100% cut and dried,
Mikhail Bulgakov,
Jan-22-05 12:02 PM, #8
Flag burning is protected speech.,
pandora,
Jan-22-05 12:18 PM, #9
Nobody said it wasn't,
samela,
Jan-22-05 12:33 PM, #10
RE: any contemporary thinking leftist,
pandora,
Jan-22-05 12:40 PM, #11
Be my guest,
samela,
Jan-22-05 12:46 PM, #12
No, I'm the one who carries the flag,
pandora,
Jan-22-05 12:56 PM, #13
All political speech is guaranteed by the first amendment,
Party_like_its_2004,
Jan-22-05 01:37 PM, #15
RE: All political speech is guaranteed by the first amendment,
halleen,
Jan-22-05 04:22 PM, #16
Welcome, halleen...,
dedalus,
Jan-22-05 04:29 PM, #17
Thanks for the report,
azul,
Jan-22-05 04:33 PM, #18
that's so cool, I totally remember seeing you,
Babylonian,
Jan-23-05 11:47 AM, #21
I think you have won the record for the most viewed post,
GangOfOne,
Jan-22-05 01:18 PM, #14
wow sweet,
Babylonian,
Jan-22-05 05:34 PM, #19
Don't think so, but you're # 2 with a bullet,
RussBLib,
Jan-22-05 05:39 PM, #20
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"RE: Photos and Videos from Shrub Coronation Protests"
In response to Reply #2
Edited on Sat Jan-22-05 09:24 AM by Mikhail Bulgakov
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Quote:
Originally posted by winehouse
"A Molotov cocktail?"
Watch as our hero, winehouse, builds his strawman. NOTE: I don't recall any mention of a Molotov cocktail.
Quote:
Originally posted by winehouse
"Don't meet opposition with violence. Aren't you at all aware of the subject of this protest?"
I see. Allow fascist thugs--alleged "police"--to toss tear gas in their collective face's and visit violence on the protesters for exercising their first amendment rights. No response required.
Is that the course of action you recommend?
Quote:
Originally posted by winehouse
"If you want to protest, protest. But if people continue to take the easy route of exhibiting chimpanzee behaviour, then there will never be any progress whatsoever in solution of these world problems."
"chimpanzee behaviour"? When was self-defense redefined as "chimpanzee behaviour"? At what point does poor police behavior, or in this case, deliberate and often violent provocation of the protesters by the police, qualify as "chimpanzee behaviour"?
Quote:
Originally posted by winehouse
"You throw a molotov cocktail at some police, a teenager in the West Bank or the Gaza Strip throws a rock at a tank. Who loses out more?"
Again, winehouse, who mentioned the imaginary Molotov cocktail you continually refer to?
Quote:
Originally posted by winehouse
"Consider: living as you are in a relatively comfortable Northern Hemisphere Western nation you have practically no right and definately no serious justification for resorting to mass street fighting."
"practically no right"? How dare you. We have every right. We, the people, are the Government.
Quote:
Originally posted by winehouse
"A child can be excused (of a sort) for stamping its feet, and yelling and no surprise if the kid occasionally breaks something. This is because the child cannot be expected to respond to challenges with sophisticated lines of question, reasoned debate and display qualities such as pragmatism and the ability to consider/understand the others opposing views."
This is the "knock down" phase of the strawman folks. Cluetime! Here's the fallacy of winehouse's argument: The violence was provoked by the police not the protesters.
Quote:
Originally posted by winehouse
"An adult who decides to throw his or her maturity and years of education to the wind and pout - and kill police officers in the extreme examples - can only be worthy of contempt and despaired of, by others of all ages."
No one mentioned, or even suggested that protesters "kill police officers". Are you responding to the same thread I'm reading?
Quote:
Originally posted by winehouse
"What do you want to do? Break somebody's face in with a easy brick or gradually change the world for the better: one rational, satisfying step at a time?
"Simple choice. Start by taking a deep breath. You're gonna need it.
"Cheers"
I rather doubt the protesters--gasping for fresh air and under violent assault by Washington, DC police riot teams--were particularly well served by your Ghandi-like concerns at that pressing moment in time.
Good G*d, man, they were under violent attack by a militarized police force. How do you expect the protesters to respond? With flowers and love beads?
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samela | Sat Jan-22-05 11:23 AM |
Member since Apr 25th 2002
12633 posts
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"Welcome, winehouse"
In response to Reply #2
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Many of us would agree here with your proviso regarding molotov cocktails and the like ... and I did see that post to which you responded.
I was arguing likewise regarding 'flag burning," if such actually took place the other day. The left has matured sufficiently (or, indeed, should have) to recognize that that flag belongs every bit to US as much as them. That our ideas for change and our dissent are patriotic in the extreme. By resorting to old-style street theater like flag burning, we are sending the message that the flag belongs to THEM only, and giving them the chance to level the equally ridiculous charge that we're "anti-American." We want to take back our flag, not destroy it. (Insofar as a flag means anything, which it doesn't.)
Bartcoppers are by and large a group that believes in enlightened discussion peppered with liberal (and I do mean liberal) doses of humor. Since November, our humor quotient has been understandably somewhat deficient. But few here think that there is much to be gained from throwing molotov cocktails or burning flags. Though I'm not a Ghandian proponent of total nonviolence, neither do I think such violence begets anything more than a response of repression --- which is exactly what the cocktail thrower wants: to turn the opposition into an oppressor. I lived through the sixties. I remember the intentions of such actions.I sat in the meetings. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie,
deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth,
persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.
— John F. Kennedy
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"It's never 100% cut and dried"
In response to Reply #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by samela
"...Though I'm not a Ghandian proponent of total nonviolence, neither do I think such violence begets anything more than a response of repression --- which is exactly what the cocktail thrower wants: to turn the opposition into an oppressor. I lived through the sixties. I remember the intentions of such actions.I sat in the meetings. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now..."
And, as you know, on many occasions the clown throwing the Molotov cocktail was an employee of the administration or police--agent provocateur, which may, or may not, have been the case in this instance.
In any case, a Molotov cocktail was never thrown. And to suggest such an action when unprovoked by unnecessary violence is always wrong.
I also believe, however, that it's equally wrong to lay down in the face of abuse of power, eg. government sanctioned violence--be it the police or the President (sic) and his administration.
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samela | Sat Jan-22-05 12:33 PM |
Member since Apr 25th 2002
12633 posts
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"Nobody said it wasn't"
In response to Reply #9
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That's immaterial. Was just saying it is a wholly counterproductive tactic and one of which I don't approve: not because I have any particular reverence toward the flag (I think it's fairly meaningless) but because the act of burning one sends exactly the wrong message. We dislike the current administration and its policies, not the flag that represents our country. To focus anger on the flag suggests that the administration is one and the same as the symbol of our country. That they and the flag are on one side and we are on the other. Au contraire ... our flag and our country is better than that. We want to take the flag back and restore honor to it and our nation. It's ours as much as theirs. We own the f*cking flag, too, and it represents our ideas and our ideals. To burn it is self-contradictory.
Besides, as I said the other day ... I don't believe any contemporary thinking leftist would do this (any more than we spit at returning solidiers). It's the image of leftists that the administration would like the country to have. So if someone's burning one, I'd check their creds.
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie,
deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth,
persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.
— John F. Kennedy
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samela | Sat Jan-22-05 12:46 PM |
Member since Apr 25th 2002
12633 posts
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"Be my guest"
In response to Reply #11
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Burn a flag if it makes you feel better.
It won't help the situation one iota, however.
It will give a lot of pleasure and succor to the Republicans.
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie,
deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth,
persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.
— John F. Kennedy
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"All political speech is guaranteed by the first amendment"
In response to Reply #2
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I'll bet that it hasn't even occurred to you that there is something wrong with people being intimidated, beat up, tear gassed and arrested for peacefully expressing their opinions?
Wake up. You live in a fascist police state and can't even see it when it's right in front of your face.
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halleen | Sat Jan-22-05 04:22 PM |
Member since Jan 22nd 2005
1 posts
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"RE: All political speech is guaranteed by the first amendment"
In response to Reply #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Party_like_its_2004
I'll bet that it hasn't even occurred to you that there is something wrong with people being intimidated, beat up, tear gassed and arrested for peacefully expressing their opinions?
Wake up. You live in a fascist police state and can't even see it when it's right in front of your face.
I agree, we are in a fascist (I would say quasi-) police state.
However, I was there Thursday and I saw plenty of people expressing their opinions without being hassled in any way by the cops.
The images of tear gassings are the ones the republicans want shown, and I'm pretty sure they were the result of people crossing the line, throwing stuff (which is dangerous you know) and mis behaving.
No one's first amendent rights were being supressed Thursday, if you got fucked up by the cops you probably brought it on yourself.
On flag burning, you absolutely have to right to do it, but it is stupid. It again gives the Republican the images they want to see on tv.
The flag is ours too and we have to reclaim true patriotism and pride in the ideals of America.
I proudly wear a flag and a yellow ribbon on my car right next to a sticker that reads "support the troops: fire rumsfeld."
It's THIS kind of "it's my flag too" language that really gets them upset, which is a better tack to take.
One of the most annoying things I saw Thursday was the attitude of the very few protestors who apparantly hadn't read the paper and thought they had a consitutional right to not stand in line and carry their backpacks through the checkpoints.
The very fact that such security was necessary should be embarassing to the republicans (oh wait, nothing embarasses them). Let the security over-reaction stand as the symbol, don't ruin it by fitting into their stereotype of an anti-american, allied with the terrorists, communist, wacko, hippie.
Be smart. Don't get shot. Make your point.
By the way my pix from j20 are at http://www.mikehalleen.com/j20
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dedalus | Sat Jan-22-05 04:29 PM |
Member since Aug 11th 2002
3107 posts
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"Welcome, halleen..."
In response to Reply #16
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Excellent first post there. Look forward to hearing more from you, and thanks for being out there and protesting....
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Babylonian | Sun Jan-23-05 11:47 AM |
Member since Sep 18th 2002
1010 posts
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"that's so cool, I totally remember seeing you"
In response to Reply #16
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RussBLib | Sat Jan-22-05 05:39 PM |
Member since May 06th 2002
11408 posts
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"Don't think so, but you're # 2 with a bullet"
In response to Reply #14
Edited on Sat Jan-22-05 05:41 PM by RussBLib
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