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Subject: "I really am an undecided voter" First topic | Last topic
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SDentFri Mar-28-08 08:35 PM
Member since Apr 25th 2002
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"I really am an undecided voter"


          

for what it's worth, here's the *most* intelligent discussion I've been able to glean and boil down, in the entire debate, but it still centers around the same controversy that divides:

1. Is obama qualified, seasoned, experienced, etc. enough to be a "fighter'? If he's enough of those things, then we can deal with whether or not he's enough to be president later? I say this as a "potential" obama supporter. the majority of the discussion seems to be centered around his ability to "fight" a campaign, not lead a nation.

2. Hillary has shown herself to be a "fighter" and we don't necessarily like that, especially when it means she's "fighting" against "our" (if you're an obama supporter) very viable (like it or not) primary contestant.

3. If we end up with Obama *OR* Clinton (and, frankly, therefore the *Clenis* - they're *still* running on the "you get two for one" platform"), WHO is better prepared to fight the dirty tactics we know we're going to face from the same party who beat McCain in a primary race on the basis that he had a black love child - GIVEN - whitewater, monica, and all that the Clenis entails, v. Obama, Wright and all the unknowns. In other words, we know why people hate hillary, we're not sure why they may hate obama in the near future. fear of the unknown is a motherfucker.

That pretty much wraps up the entire infighting thing that i've seen for weeks now.

who is pure? who is dirty? who is crafty? who is willing to play dirty? maybe dirty is good? who's tapped into the system? who's not? maybe being outside the sytem is good? maybe being inside the sytem is good because we can get things done? maybe being inside the sytem is bad because we'll get more of the same? we're just NOT SURE.

And so, we are reacting from FEAR. Fear of the unknown. Just like racism or bigotry, etc....people DO NOT LIKE what they cannot predict. Fear is a motherfucker.

However, I will say this - and I truly mean this to all the Hillary and Obama supporters - It will be change regardless. just getting rid of bush and by proxy keeping McCrazy out of office equals change.

There were those who said when we face the general election, dirty is going to count, because let's face it, they are certainly not going to play fair. I think we want it both ways.

"WE" want the pure candidate who will save the soul of this nation. AND "WE" want the candidate who is seasoned and willing enough to get down in the mud and fight with the big boys, because we're bitter enough and experienced enough as BIG Democrat voters to know that a novice OR a quitter just won't get the office regardless. Because "WE" all know that they're going to scratch, claw, steal, intimidate, and cheat their way out of every vote they can get.

SO. What's a Democrat to do? STOP. LOOK. and LISTEN. (or potentially tuck and roll, you decide).

Vote your conscience (egads). If we can possibly sound so naive at this point, STOP attacking your fellow dems. This does not mean stop pointing out faults in your fellow dems' preferred candidate's position.

By all means, let's discuss position, policy, issues, etc. THAT is what a godambed campaign is for. But please for the love of god stop attacking the supporters. It's like showing up at the soccer game and your ex-wife/ex-husband is over there sneering at you while threatening that if you don't capitulate to his or her personal bullshit, he's going to throw the toddler under the bus and start cheering for the other team.

end of rant.

  

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RE: I really am an undecided voter, mooseNsquirrel, Mar-28-08 08:50 PM, #1
Thanks M&S!, SDent, Mar-28-08 09:11 PM, #2
      For me..., Grannyc, Mar-28-08 10:19 PM, #3
           RE: For me..., mooseNsquirrel, Mar-29-08 12:21 AM, #4
RE: fighting - does that include running a campaign?, pandora, Mar-30-08 06:21 AM, #5
Well all that $ that won't be going to DCCC..., Blossom, Mar-30-08 06:27 AM, #6
Many have already maxed out, pandora, Mar-30-08 06:44 AM, #7
So it's an empty threat?, Blossom, Mar-30-08 08:05 AM, #8
But what if, like Kerry before him, he figures, secondharmonic, Mar-31-08 05:40 AM, #11
who's on 1st?, Throgg, Mar-30-08 04:18 PM, #9
MN Sen. Klobuchar & 7 NC Dem House Members, Blossom, Mar-31-08 04:40 AM, #10
      Thanks for that. I really wasn't impressed with Klobuchar, secondharmonic, Mar-31-08 05:43 AM, #12
           Have to admit I know nothing about her..., Blossom, Mar-31-08 08:13 AM, #13

mooseNsquirrelFri Mar-28-08 08:50 PM
Member since Apr 29th 2002
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"RE: I really am an undecided voter"
In response to Reply #0


          

Sam,

Great rant. And if you come to KC again for whatever reason, breakfast, lunch or dinner, etc is a given.

I hope things are going well on your end.

I wish more would post as well as you are doing right now.

m&s

  

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SDentFri Mar-28-08 09:11 PM
Member since Apr 25th 2002
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"Thanks M&S!"
In response to Reply #1


          

honestly, I'm just in one of those places where I chose to step back a little, but I have my interest intact, of course, and the whole primary thing just seems to be so crazy right now.

I recognize it's not just on this board - it's all over the internets. but I do like to think of this place as my safe haven, and being one who hasn't decided yet....watching it all implode and seeing the likes of drudge talk about the division of the entire party makes me wanna cry.

in 2000: "if we can't beat this guy we have problems."
2004: "he's the most hated president in history, if we can't beat this guy we have problems".
2008: we now have a senile, UGLY (let's face it, that's what the ignorant voters go for), bad policy dude who's basically said, I'm doing nothing but what the other guy did and it may be worse for another 100 years...um, I hate to put the bad mojo out there, but if we can't beat this guy....we have PROBLEMS.

This whole infighting thing just goes to reinforce what every critic of the Dem party has been saying for the last 12-15 years or more.

egads. sheesh. fuck me. apparently i can go fuck myself. jesus christ on a godambed cherry flavored popsicle stick.

seriously - if we give this one up, we DO NOT deserve to govern. even on the local county, council seat in Antlers, godambed, Oklahoma.

sigh,...big sigh...................


"Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion." -- Donnie Darko

  

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GrannycFri Mar-28-08 10:19 PM
Member since Apr 27th 2002
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"For me..."
In response to Reply #2


          

I truly chose to believe what a candidate says about himself/herself and take it from there.

At this point it is obvious I am a Clinton fan. Because the first thing I did was get her book (when she became a senator) I like what she wants to accomplish and where she has been.

I am older... I came up thru the sexism of the 60s and 70s. I worked in a man's world. First at a car dealership and then on to Real Estate (where I went into ESCROW -- a very tough place to be) In order to get the job done one had to be tough.

So I developed a VERY STRONG MIND and tried to keep my VERY SOFT HEART.. Yes, I was often described as a "bitch" in the most derotigory sense. But I raised boys and lived with the nicest spouse in the universe... So the 'bitch' word was bent to be a compliment -- in my circle... Depending on who used it. And I hope Hillary embraces the title as "the one who can get the job done"

Obama worries me, because he responds to political banter as if it were racism and personal... And the pundits agree with him... Can he win? Perhaps! He sure has a lot of very strong fans.

I don't want Hillary to drop out. I want to go all the way through the remaining primary votes. I can't imagine any democrat wanting to disenfranchise those who have not even voted yet -- by asking one of two contestants to drop out.

  

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mooseNsquirrelSat Mar-29-08 12:21 AM
Member since Apr 29th 2002
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"RE: For me..."
In response to Reply #3


          

well said and i agree, must have been because of my angie, my love, my wife, the vows I took April 6, 1991. She sees the reality of this mess we are in and still insills some hope in my soul.

  

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pandoraSun Mar-30-08 06:21 AM
Member since Feb 04th 2004
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"RE: fighting - does that include running a campaign?"
In response to Reply #0


          

That's a comparison that few seem to be considering.

Obama has done a better job of raising money and organizing
boots on the ground at the grassroots.

He has utilized the internet and Dean's 50 State Strategy
better than Dean ever did.

He came from WAY behind in the polls to be the frontrunner.

Doesn't this inspire confidence for his prospects in the GE?
Does for me.

Here are a couple articles for you:

Obama Rewriting Rules for Raising Campaign Money Online
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/27/AR2008032702968.html

Is Hillary broke?
http://www.suntimes.com/news/sneed/865494,CST-NWS-SNEED28.article


~Write hard, die free.
~The Command Post

  

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BlossomSun Mar-30-08 06:27 AM
Member since Feb 09th 2006
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"Well all that $ that won't be going to DCCC..."
In response to Reply #5


          

...candidates -- won't that all flow into her coffers to bail the campaign out?

I mean, screw Congressional Democrats. Who needs 'em?

Res ipsa loquitur.
The thing speaks for itself.


Blossom

  

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pandoraSun Mar-30-08 06:44 AM
Member since Feb 04th 2004
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"Many have already maxed out"
In response to Reply #6


          

....
Part of Clinton's fundraising woes is that many of her key donors have already donated the maximum amount allowed by law, forcing the former first lady to look for new donors, as well as target younger voters through low dollar events, like tonight.

And despite increases in her online contributions, Clinton's online effort pales in comparison to Obama's, who in February out-raised Clinton over the internet by upwards of $30 million, causing Clinton to spend crucial time fundraising on the road, rather than campaigning.
...
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/03/26/politics/fromtheroad/entry3970631.shtml





~Write hard, die free.
~The Command Post

  

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BlossomSun Mar-30-08 08:05 AM
Member since Feb 09th 2006
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"So it's an empty threat?"
In response to Reply #6


          

...or are they just going to use it go to Disneyworld and take a pass on this year's elections entirely?

Evidently she could use that $ -- the dunning letters are starting to mount and calls to her campaign bookkeepers are not being returned.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9259.html


Res ipsa loquitur.
The thing speaks for itself.


Blossom

  

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secondharmonicMon Mar-31-08 05:40 AM
Member since Apr 30th 2002
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"But what if, like Kerry before him, he figures"
In response to Reply #5


          

with the Repub candidate so lame, that with the Dem nomination in hand he has already WON, and goes to sleep for the last 3 months while the Repubs ratchet up their attacks?
What if, even more sinister, he has used Repubs desire to 'kill the bitch', and now when he turns to the GE, they are no longer there on his side?
Weirder things have happened.
But somehow, I don't believe Hillary would let McCain stomp all over her.

  

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ThroggSun Mar-30-08 04:18 PM
Member since Apr 22nd 2002
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"who's on 1st?"
In response to Reply #0


          

"who is pure? who is dirty? who is crafty? who is willing to play dirty? maybe dirty is good? who's tapped into the system? who's not? maybe being outside the sytem is good?"

If you're looking for purity go to church.
And if you find any there let us know.

Clinton has to win the dirty award if only because she and Bill have been around longer. Of course much or the dirt is only percieved by those who wish to percieve it.
Most but not all.
Given time Obama may match her but as of now he seems clean enough, if not spotless.

On balance I believe the Clinton team has played dirtier so far, but that's often a hallmark of the trailing candidate.
Dirty can be good if they don't end up as the trailing candidate. Since little of her dirt seems to be sticking to it's target it ain't good.

A former first lady and her former prez hubby ARE the system, but Obama has some hefty heavyweights backing him. Quite a few, actually.
And his success in caucases, which attract the core party faithful to a somewhat greater extent than primaries do, is another sign that's he's tapped in pretty darn well.
A tie on paper, but now is now and the Clinton admin was then.

Are any of them really outside the system? Maybe Wendell Willkie, but he's been dead a long time.


mundus vult decipi

  

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BlossomMon Mar-31-08 04:40 AM
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"MN Sen. Klobuchar & 7 NC Dem House Members"
In response to Reply #0


          


New Backing for Obama As Party Seeks Unity

Helping to drive the endorsements is a fear that the Obama-Clinton contest has grown toxic and threatens the Democratic Party's chances against Republican John McCain in the fall.

The undecideds seem to be moving to one side or the other and picking up speed in doing so. I suppose it's bandwagon mentality in many or most cases, but that's politics.

Res ipsa loquitur.
The thing speaks for itself.


Blossom

  

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secondharmonicMon Mar-31-08 05:43 AM
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"Thanks for that. I really wasn't impressed with Klobuchar"
In response to Reply #10


          

before this -- she voted FOR that lame-o telecom immunity FISA bill before the recess in August. Our new Rep, Tim Walz, did too. Now he's running what looks like a Republican campaign for re-election. Maybe that's smart for where he is, but uggggh.

  

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BlossomMon Mar-31-08 08:13 AM
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"Have to admit I know nothing about her..."
In response to Reply #12


          

...till now. One more superdelegate, that's what she means to me.

Res ipsa loquitur.
The thing speaks for itself.


Blossom

  

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